First Walks

[jackdeb]

[Josephine]

Some folk have asked me to introduce myself properly so here goes. If this is in the wrong place then feel free to move it. As you know my name is Josephine and I am a single person living alone with my two dogs. I have had both of them for 9 years and both are rescued though technically I "bought" Meg. Meg is an American Cocker and Barney is a Collie cross from Cardonald cat and dog home.
When I first got Barney he was in the true sense of the word a wild animal. He knew nothing at all about behaving. All he knew was bite, grab, steal and eat but I worked very hard with him. At a considerable expense I took him to a dog behaviorist who said to me "you really need to sort this out because this is not the kind of dog you can pass on to someone else. (not that I was in any way intending to) You'll end up getting him put to sleep." so I worked long and hard with him using clicker training and establishing the pack rules and now he is so much better behaved not perfect at all but a huge amount better than he was when I first got him.
I "bought" Meg of a breeder who no longer wanted her and as soon as I got her home I became aware she'd been abused. On the way home she stood up in the back of the car the whole way (she did have a safety car harness on) and she did a poo. When we arrived home I went into the back of the car and put my arms around her and said it's all right. She put her head on my chest and that was it. She was my dog and never looked back. Barney on the other hand looked for someone for about three months before he settled down and knew this is his forever home. For a long time Meg shook as soon as she met someone new and went behind my back to hide. She was especially scared of men and if your feet went anywhere near her she reacted as if you were going to kick her.
We no longer follow all the pack rules because we don't need them as such. Now both dogs lie on the couch beside me and sleep in my bed with me, Barney under the covers at my feet and Meg beside me.
So you see, I do know about training difficult dogs but still in no way would I put a prong collar on them A basket muzzle if necessary but not a prong collar. Basket type of muzzle if necessary so they can still breath with their mouth open and their tongues out too. And if a dog is too strong for you to hold then it is not the right breed of dog for you. That's something which should be considered (as I did) when getting a new dog. I do find it astonishing that the owner/trainer of a dog training class would recommend and even buy them in for people. I think that's you John? If this has made you think about it and persuades even one person not to use them then it will have been a worthwhile post.
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Josephine
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[maureenmcl]

I have read all the posts so far and thought long and hard before posting a reply as I believe Josephine that you have made your mind up and have clearly came on the forum to voice your protest with no interest at all in listening to the reasons why owners have chosen the prong collar. Jack made really good points about safety, and injuries sustained with your choice of training aid the halti but you have not addressed any of these points. To say someone should only choose a breed they can handle is very naive. Our rescue/rehoming centres would be full of large breeds and in my experience size does not necessarily mean the dog pulls.

I dont like personal attacks on anyone on a forum and take offense when you attack John who has not only the dogs best interest at heart but also the owners.

We are diverse group and have different opinions but common goals of loving our dogs and being open minded keeps this forum the success it is, and we could not do this without John

[Jack]

Josephine,

Thanks for saying hi & telling us a little about yourself and your dogs. It's lovely to hear of 2 dogs being rescued and finding a loving forever home.
We follow pack order to a large degree here but ALL of my dogs are allowed on the furniture and in my bed for cuddles as we have no issues with people dominance. I favour love and patient (positive reinforcement/reward based) training myself as opposed to negative or punishment training.

I'd like to comment on a few items within your post....

A basket muzzle would NOT stop a dog from pulling. But WOULD stop it from defending itself if IT was attacked. For that reason I do NOT like muzzles and for that reason I do consider them "cruel". I recommend their use as a last resort ONLY to be used on dogs IF those dogs themselves have bitten others. A basket muzzle would NOT stop a strong dog from pulling you off your feet and barrelling into another dog or person knocking THEM off their feet and inflicting god knows how many bruises and/or broken bones - especially if they barrelled into a child.

I personally don't use a prong collar but MAY consider one in the future if all the hard work and training does not assist with Sykes. So far he IS showing signs of improvement. The smallest of dogs can pull horrifically and a prong assists with eliminating that. Sometimes the prong is only needed for a "re-training" period, sometimes forever.

Some of the large breeds or dominant types on here have been rescued by their owners. Without those compassionate enough to take such dogs on the dogs would be destroyed so that would be preferable to you would it? A healthy dog being murdered because it pulls too forcefully on a lead? Well it's not preferable to me. I'd rather see a prong collar being correctly employed and the dog alive, happy and loved than being put to sleep simply because it pulls - there are limited numbers of people willing to take on problem dogs - I'd rather see every last one of them use a prong collar and give those dogs a decent life than vast numbers being put to sleep because no-one is willing to take them on. Man interfered and bred dogs in all shapes and sizes simply because he could - well it's up to us to ensure all shapes and sizes of dogs are loved and cared for correctly and that others remain safe around those with ongoing issues IF the prong is a tool assists with that and it is HUMANELY used I cannot for the life of me see why anyone should object to it. IF the dogs skin was broken OR it showed distress at the collar at ANY stage, OR if it reacted adversely to it whilst wearing it then I would be completely supporting your argument but NONE of the dogs on here react in ANY of those ways so I don't understand why this continues to wind you up so much?
Saying you should ONLY have a dog that doesn't pull you is also a sweeping statement. There are many on here who adore their exhuberant dogs whatever their size. Your statement that you should not have a dog you cannot reign in alone would be hugely offensive to those people as what's the alternative? Dump the dog at a shelter and hope it escapes euthanasia and that someone powerful enough happens across it and takes it on? That's not very likely - the shelters are overflowing as it is! People on here LOVE their dogs and would absolutely NOT cause them any harm or distress.

I have taken this issue so much to heart because I USED to feel the way you do about prongs but I try and be unblinkered and open to new ideas and training tools/methods. I have tried them against my own skin. I have witnessed their use by friends with dogs previously out of control but suddenly walking to heel and responding brilliantly with them on and obviously ENJOYING themselves & their walks with their masters. IF I had witnessed ANY where this wasn't true you could be damned sure I would have spoken up. I am known for not mincing my words when the need arises.

I am also offended because I have made many friends on here. Many lovely people who clearly ADORE their dogs and I am offended FOR them that you are attacking them this way. Quite unwarranted in my honest opinion. To make ANY statement of this sort you should witness for yourself first the way people are on here WITH their dogs and with the tools they use to help them enjoy their time out and about with them - you cannot possibly comment and expect me to respect your opinion if you don't do that - prongs can be used as tools of abuse sure and they CAN inflict damage if incorrectly used but try and see the other side of the coin - see how IF they are CORRECTLY used everyone benefits and THEN try and convince me they are still bad - I don't envy you that job because although I personally don't use them I can see how effective they are AND how necessary in some cases - I see that because I have stayed open minded and have done my homework.

ANY everyday object can be turned into a tool for abuse - it is how you employ that object that determines whether or not it is cruel.

John I think the time has come for you to respond to Josephine and her statements as she seems to think YOU personally are responsible for, well I dunno, brainwashing your club members to use these collars

I'm going to step back now because I feel I have made my stance clear. I don't use the collars personally so feel those that do should now decide whether or not to continue this debate and whether or not they should bother in trying to defend themselves against this attack.
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[shirley c]

[Gordon]

I have been watching this subject unfold over the full day and feel that I have to say something. I think you all know my position on the use of prong collars. I would never advocate the use of this tool, but do understand that it may be used as an absolute last method to stop a large/strong dog from lunging at another dog or person.

I have seen first hand the damage they do to a dogs neck on the group walks. The dog on this particular walk had a prong collar on. It had scores on its neck that was caused because of the dog pulling - quite the opposite of what everyone keeps saying prong collars are supposed to stop. It didn't make a blind bit of difference. I personally think it was making it worse as the dog must have been in some kind of pain or discomfort with the grooves it was leaving in the skin. If it was the case that the owner did not have the collar fitted correctly then surely they would have been shown how to fit the collar properly?? The dog was panting and pulling the whole time we were on the walk.

How many dog owners have tried to train their dogs to follow, instead of trying to get it to stop pulling, instead of constantly yanking it back - which as we all know causes damage to the dog's neck. Its actually quite an easy method, but can take a bit of time for the dog to get used to it. When the dog is pulling just stand still until the lead goes slack, then continue to walk. There is also the method of using your long training lead to have a loop in, so when the dog is pulling let the loop go and walk in the opposite direction. Do not check the dog just walk. They will soon get to know who is taking who for a walk.

Again, I have seen for myself prong collars being put on dogs in the class when the owner has said that the dog pulls. Is this really the first way to train a dog to stop pulling - it seems to me to be the last! It seems to be a simple thing in the class to put on the prong collar right away instead of teaching the dog to follow. The last straw was when a prong collar was immediately put on a Border Collie in the class to stop it pulling on the first night it was there. These are the easiest dogs to train and I felt it totally unnecessary.

When you go to a class you are training the owner, not the dog. When you go home that is when the dog is getting trained by the things that you have learned in that class. This is the only class that I know of that advocates the use of prong collars to begin with, instead of a final resort tool.

For this reason I have stopped going to the classes and also on the walks.

[Alan and Lynsey]

Gordon this is your opinion and i agree with what you say about you are not training the dog you are training the owner, this is why at cumbernauld dog school i have never seen john sell a prong collar to what he deemed an irresponsible owner. i use a prong on my cocker spaniel meg and she has never been hurt by it and has never had any marks left on her due to the collar. i tried for long enough to get meg not to pull and not to walk ahead but could never achieve my goal, she now wears a prong collar and walks like a dream, everybody on this forum knows that i never give up on my training and i work very hard with meg and we have never missed a sunday class since we started but this was one thing i could never get her to do.

everybody has there own opinion about prong collars but i can say without a shadow of a doubt that everybody in the class that use a prong collar do so with care and know that they can cause damage to the dog if pulled on.

i hope you don't mind me asking but was the prong issue the only reason you stopped coming to class? if so i think that is a really shame because all the people at class are top notch and are some of the nicest people i have ever met,everybody at the dog schoool are animal lovers like myself and i know they would never hurt and animal intentionally.
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Cheers,

Alan, Lynsey, Meg, Peanut and new arrival Bella

[Craig/Tracy]

Josephine, i understand totally that you do not and would not use the pinch collar because you lucky enough not to but our story is that we bought Enzo a gsd who was nine weeks old and tried the flat leash which was fine for a while but obviously as he got bigger i could not walk him as he was not used to visitors in our home that he started to lunge at people and dogs ,we then hired a dog trainer to the house costing £30p/h bearing in mind three hours a week who she suggested the halti which we tried for months but was like walking a dog that had just suffered a stroke as his head was spinning all over the place bless him, we then tried the choke chain but he became more aggresive and by this time bit three adults one who had to have a tetanus and no t shirt left then thought try the soft muzzle which just put his hackles up at every moving object outside, we decided to rehome him with the gsd rescue and which he did with a ex army dog handler got a phone call the next morning to go and collect him as he went for her partner so thats when we were put onto John and believe Me John would not suggest the prong if not need be but it is the only training device that has worked for my Enzo,it only mi-micks how the mummy would treat the puppy if out of line and Enzo took to this straight away and does not pull or lunch at people or kids now and believe me i have tried every method but we are a good bunch here and do not let this put you off, i am also a gsd rescue volunteer does not mean i would recommend the pinch collar to every gsd only to the very extreme cases

[Alan and Lynsey]

forgot to add to my post that i was not defending myself or anybody else on this post but it looks like the only people that are leaving negative comments are people that don't really know us and someone who does not come to class anymore.

this is all im saying on this matter.

ps go on with your bad self jack.
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Cheers,

Alan, Lynsey, Meg, Peanut and new arrival Bella

[Gordon]

Alan and Lynsey, yes this was my main reason for leaving the classes, and also the way it was demonstrated to a new owner how to stop a dog jumping on someone.
I am now going to another dog school where they train with clicker and I have found this to be the best method to train my Border Collie Clyde.
Getting the dog to think for its self will always have better roots in training that forcing the dog to do something. What I mean is, the dog knows it is on a prong collar and knows not to pull. Will that same dog still not pull if put back on a flat collar.
I wish everyone all the best with the training of their dogs.

[Claire/Mark]

I too also use the prong collar on my two and don't feel it matter's which size of breed you have. I don't feel and would never re home Tara (rotti) because she is a bigger breed and I should be able to hold her without a prong as Mylo (cocker spaniel) pulls just as much or even more at times. I too tried all sorts of training methods and if it wasn't for John and the training school then Mylo most likely would have been PTS if it was upto the vets Everyone is entitled to their own views, I made up my own mind to use the prong collar and have two very happy and loved dogs and we enjoy our walks very much and they also get there freedom to run free. If I felt it was in anyway harming my dogs I would not use it and I also tested it on my own arm etc before using it. As Shirley does I too use the prong collar at the vet and am no way ashamed of it. If I am asked questions about them then I shall answer and take everyone's opinion on board but lead my life and my dogs life the way I want to and feel works for the hole family. I have in no way been brain washed in any sort.

But as I say everyone is entitled to there own opinions and views in life and we all lead our life's differently if not it would be a very boring world.

[Craig/Tracy]

Gordon, still entitled to your opinion but i wish some people would not treat us like a pinch collar gang as many owners do not use this method,each to their own depending on the dog, my Enzo would have had any human or animal for dinner but would it have made it okay to put my months old gsd to sleep without giving him a chance on the pinch collar and if you were to see him now to what he was i think you would not be so quick to judge, cannot understand why you would change training classes because of this as your acting like John forces this method which is so not the case, you will not find a dog trainer anywhere like John that has the dogs best interest to heart

[Jack]

Gordon.....I use the methods you have described with Sykes along with side twitch correction a la Cesar. The relaxed lead/long leash is useless for us. Sykes wants to be pack leader on walks and he doesn't give a damn how hard he pulls . Relax the leash and he keeps going until it yanks taught again and STILL he'll strain and pull. Highly dangerous method to employ in our circumstances as we have a road to walk along before we reach the safety of the fields. It is not an option to load them into the car and drive them to the field as when I am walking them Mark (my husband) is out with the car, so we HAVE to pass the road first and it is THIS - the beginning of walks that is an issue. Once his exhuberance is run off he's MUCH better.
He's improving all the time so I AM going to persevere and attempt to get the start of walks under control - scratch that... I WILL get the start of walks under control. What works best for us is my voice. I issue the "wait" command, that is also issued at EVERY kerbside we approach so they get used to waiting and do not attempt to drag me into the road. I then issue the "sit" command and if he doesn't sit voluntarily his bum is placed onto the ground for him. I then make him wait and calm right down before simply moving on. He will STILL lurch forward, yanking my arm BUT he is getting more restrained/gentle - he's still trying it on but he's improving albeit slowly.

I hold the prong in the back of my mind because if I cannot continue to improve him then I would seriously consider using one - I trust you will agree and understand that this is or would be, if I ever go down that route, a last resort for me personally. I would NOT however, once purchased, use it if he showed ANY signs whatsoever of distress, pain or evidence that the prong was piercing him. He's my boy and I will NOT be responsible for causing him ANY amount of pain nor would I tolerate anyone else causing him pain.

The prong does NOT suit every dog or circumstance and should not be used if that's the case. If a dog persists in pulling causing damage to themselves in the process the another tool or method could be considered. Prongs CAN make SOME dogs react adversely, become aggressive at the perceived attack they feel - again if this is the case an alternative tool/method should be employed.

I am saddened that you have said a dog was in distress on the walks. That surprises me greatly. I'm not going to ask you to name and shame but I am sure if they are a member on here they will be along to address that statement themselves.

As for correcting dogs that jump up.....again I am not qualified to comment as I wasn't there and didn't see for myself the episode to which you refer so in all honesty and integrity I have to stay silent on that unless you are prepared to state what exactly occurred and why you disagreed with it?

Clicker training works well on close contact but is useless off leash when they are too far ahead or there is too much else going on to hear. Where I live it's exceptionally windy and the wind often carries sound AWAY from the dogs and they genuinely don't hear. Rather than keep shouting them I am going to be investing in a whistle and train them to respond to that - I find that sound carries much better than me shrieking like a banshee.

I have to ask the obvious question Gordon.....do you now attend the same training school as Josephine? You both despise the use of prongs (as do I IF they cause ANY amount of harm to the dog) and both extol the virtues of clicker training - just interested - I can't comment on either class seeing as I attend neither but I'm sure people on here would like to know.
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Staffies are my life! Visit us at www.staffies.co.uk

[Josephine]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://media.merchantcircle.com/22606864/Bridget%2520poses%2520nicely%2520with%2520her%2520Elkhound%2520bud%2520Sammy.%2520North%2520East%2520Town%2520Park._full.jpeg&imgrefurl=http://www.merchantcircle.com/blogs/Look.What.I.Can.Do.Dog.Training.443-350-6820/2008/5/Reasons-NOT-to-Use-A-Prong-Pinch-Collar/80448&usg=__gkaNqhOrRZMon6tzaFcf9D2hIS0=&h=768&w=1024&sz=188&hl=en&start=56&tbnid=K6BHDR6NDqR9hM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbad%2Beffect%2Bof%2Bprong%2Bcollars%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D40%26ie%3DUTF-8

May I suggest reading the above article? I know the link is long. Can't work out how to make it shorter but if you copy and paste it you should get there. This lady says it much better than I can.
Thank you Gordon for having the courage to post your reply. I have some photos of the effect a prong collar can have but I can't figure out how to post them here. I can email them to anyone who wants.

I would like to make one thing clear. I did not come on here with the intent to slate anyone or accuse anyone. I was simply surfing one day when I came across the forum. I thought great! Something like this close by. Then I found the post suggesting someone use prong collars on their puppies when taking them for their FIRST WALKS. They haven't even had time to try kind, positive methods and I think this is where some of you are being misguided. I hope these horrible collars will soon be made illegal and incidentally I feel the same about choke chains and electronic collars. I believe it won't be that long before they become illegal.
I will reply to other points later. I have to go and eat now.
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Josephine
"The earth laughs in flowers"
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[Craig/Tracy]

The e collar is so different as i would not like a electric shock on my dog but I HAVE TRIED THE PINCH COLLAR ON MY ARM AND IT REALLY DOES NOT HURT as i ssssoooooooooooo love my Enzo and would not inflict any pain, but i have to disagree about not mimicking the mother as the puppy would not let out a little yelp if mother was not giving the puppy into trouble,this is a known fact