Dog Breeders - general waffle

[Cassandra]

hi there

I have been asking for a few opinions on what people feel makes a good breeder, to help me with our choices for where our new puppy will come from. My head is now spinning...

Within my chosen breeds community (border collies) there is alot of rivalry between the kennel club dogs and the ISDS (international sheep dog society).
I have to say that growing up in a rural location I do tend to fall on the side of the farmers and subsequently the ISDS.
If a breeder is breeding from dual registered parents I will still look at them, because any ISDS registered dog can be KC registered...whilst KC only registered dogs have to be tested before they are allowed into the ISDS.

I been learning alot about tests that some people look for having being done, CEA/PRA, hip scoring, TNS and CL, BAER...I think thats it lol.

Now with these tests, the rivalry between the two groups becomes aparent.

The only breeders who appear to do every test or there abouts are KC only registered dogs, which I wouldn't touch with someone elses ten foot barge pole, the way they are bred makes me sick to be honest.

You then get your midway breeders...the ones who are generally dual registered, who don't just breed their dogs because they need to, but also to make money aswell as take part in things like agility, trialing and obediences etc.

Then you got your pure working lines. In alot of cases these breeders will not sell to anyone who doesn't intend to work the dog, so thats a no even if you want to do a sport, its sheep, cattle and farm work or no dog.
There are however a few of these farmers who will allow their dogs to go into other homes, but will only breed their dogs when they need replacements for their own dogs, and generally require a full interview as to your suitability as a BC owner before they will accept a deposit.
These breeders however wil generally only test their dogs for CEA & PRA. The hip scoring they do 'on the hill' and considering in what conditions some of these dogs work if a dog has a problem working the sheep its noticable very quickly.

TNS is one of the biggest bug bears between groups...working dog owners referring to it as a 'show dog disease' and the KC folk saying that farmers are just sticking their heads in the sand by refusing to acknowledge the disease in their own lines (I have seen some results however and any dual registered dogs are clear of this disease, so I can understand the farmers scoffs)

I also am aware of how cruel some farmers can be. I remember two border collies who used to be chained up seemingly all day in a local farm yard where I grew up. Why they had the dogs I don't know they had a battery hen farm.
The dogs were removed eventually by the RSPCA and the hen farm is no longer there.
So I know that farmers are not all seeing all knowing perfect folk!

I found two breeders with high reputations within the ISDS and excellent pedigree lines, with a lot of trial champions and key dogs etc.
One has lots of tests etc, but the way they seem to breed the dogs makes me uncomfortable

The other breeder is one of those farmer breeders, breeds to replace their stock and their dogs are tested it seems only for CEA/PRA.

So am a bit stuck. I feel like I am choosing a child, after all this wee pup is going to be part of our family, whilst I could very well cope with a dog that came from a questionable background, I also have to take into consideration what impact that will have on the existing family members (that does of course include the cats).

My instincts are telling me to go with the farmer breeders, despite the fact the other dogs 'look' better. But of course looks aren't everything. I think the 'looks' aspect of things is down to familiarity, that breeders dogs have prodominantly English bloodlines and being brought up there, I used to those dogs.
The Scottish bloodline dogs are a bit rougher lol

ARRRRRRRRGH! Sorry needed to get that out I getting so many passionate conflicting responses!

[kendal]

you weren't kidding when you said you did you homework, i never new much about border collies but now i want to look into them. don't think i would ever want one but i would still like to learn more about the breed.

i say go with your gut, with that much information no wonder your confused and bewildered

[Deborah Hamilton]

Cassandra, I would tend to agree with Kendal. We went with our gut instinct when choosing our dog.
It goes for a lot and you need to be comfortable with your choice. Good luck.

[Janice]

Hi

You really have been doing your homework

Before we got Dale I worked out a sort of mental checklist of what I was looking for.

Temperament came top for me. Our previous BC had a fantastic nature and was completely reliable so I wanted that again.
I wanted a healthy pup but looks weren't so important to me. I had no plans to breed so wasn't so concerned about ancestry.

I found Dale on the internet. No I didn't buy him on line just read the ad. on epups

He came from a house in Blantyre so we visited at 5 weeks and had a long chat with the breeder.
She wasn't really a breeder though her parents are. This was her own bitch's first litter and the pups were born and reared in a living room. I felt this was important because they were used to a lot of handling and household sounds. His father is a prize winning working dog and his mother is Kc reg. This is a similar background to our previous BC and Sam really was a very special character.

I know its a risk not going to a breeder whose done all the tests but you can never have guarantees so I think at the end of the day you have to trust your own judgment. If you're planning to breed its probably more important to get all the checks done. I think you need to find someone who has a real love for the dogs and not just an interest in selling. I'm still in touch with Dale's previous owner and she wants to stay in touch through out his life. Also we agreed that if for any reason I couldn't keep him then he'd go back to her. To me these things seemed to suggest that she'd have taken good care to produce sound pups.
I may not be totally unbiased but I do think he's a great dog His only handicap is ME
_________________
Janice and Dale

[kendal]

[Cassandra]

I would assume then from your reactions that is alot of homework

For me Janice, if the dog has been bred for the breed itself, rather than standard guidelines, then temperament isn't an issue I really need to look at cos it would go without saying.
Also what I meant about 'look' wasn't pretty. Its the 'look' of the dog, thats comfortable and familiar...does that make sense?

You can tell the difference (or at least I can) between a British bred Border collie and an American bred dog, and I also discovered whilst doing my research that there are regional variations in facial structure build and coat here in the UK.

Its just down to working stock breeding. A dog from Norfolk isn't going to cope very well in the highlands due to having a thinner coat, not to mention the terrain.
The farmers will breed their dogs for the environment of their farm. I suspect alot of it is just subconcious. They know by looking at the dog if that dog 'type' is going to be able to handle driving sheep across the south downs, or across Glencoe...

According to the ISDS database, Scotland has the most purebred regional dogs (so I got stats to back this theory up lol) and that makes alot of sense because Scotland I think has some of the harshest weather conditions (not to mention the centuries long conflicts *cough*)

This is another reason why I am reluctant to go for a dog with prodominantly English bloodlines, cos we live in Scotland and whilst we would go down 'sarf' to visit family etc, if we move anywhere in the future, it will be north.

You're right...that is alot of homework! lol

I don't think so much that I am confused...well i say that now, I just emptied my head onto this forum! It makes it so much easier when its not all swimming around in your head like that.

My gut is screaming to wait for this pup from the litter due in the Autumn (patience is something I am learning). It would mean a trek to Appin around Christmas time, but I never been that far up at that time of the year, which is another added bounus too lol.

I still think I got alot more to learn. I wouldn't be planning on breeding from the dog. The only way I would ever consider breeding border collies, is if I had some sheep...and proven herding dogs. I don't think I could do it otherwise, I respect the breed far tooo much and am a stickler for tradition lol

[shirley c]

When we wanted the Bedlington Terrier it was from working dogs, allan wanted it as a working dog for rat/rabbit. The mating has not worked out and we could I suppose go down South and get another working type, but have decided to hang fire at the moment as my mum is going to breed her Rhodesian next year and we want a pup so 5 dogs is going to be quite a lot, two of ours are pensioners and maybe in a few years we can get the beddy.

What im saying is I would rather a working type dog than a KC reg one every time, look at greyounds, there are amazing differences between race and show and greyhounds with being bred for sped dont have the hereditary problems a lot of breeds do, lurchers again are bred for ability rather than looks, go to a lurcher show and see how many differences there are.

I see a large change in the ridgebacks compared to when my mum bred them years ago, Daka is not a good speciman as she is too bloodhoundy looking, but thats how they seem to be going now.

In saying all that, I think if the dog suits you and you have done your homework, you will know you have the right one

[John Thomson]

Hi Cassandra,

you certainly are going into this with your eyes wide open.

I don't know a great deal about BC's .........but you certainly do!

I'm sure you will make the right choice.
_________________
John Thomson
www.cumbernaulddogtraining.co.uk

[kendal]

[Cassandra]

wether the dog is long or shorthaired is really dependant on the parents and bloodlines.

If you mate a shorthaired with a long coated dog you going to get a mix of pups and in some cases if one of the ancestors had short hair then you can get a throwback.
Interestingly, this breeder in Appin with the 80% Scottish bloodlines is primarily rough coated dogs in the pedigree.

According to Barbara Sykes you can tell the temperament of a dog by the coat length, ears and eye colour.
Aparently a short haired prick eared, blue eyed dog is going to be a very keen worker, where as a long coated, dark brown eted floppy eared dog is going to be calmer...or something like that.

Its likely the dogs with shorter hair were bred further south because they were worked on farms rather than over hills and great distances.

[kendal]

you definitely know your collies