First Walks

[Lorna]

Well, according to Josephine I should not have Great Danes.
I am mid-sixties and have a form of dystrophy which means I have NO strength in my hands. Despite this, I walk 2 Danes on a splitter on 1 lead. They weigh 54 kilos and 78 kilos. I'm no maths teacher but that's 132 kilos. They are both rescues who weighed less than 20 kilos and were afraid of everything in the world when they came. They now run loose over the Glen on a daily basis. They come willingly to have their collars and leads put on.

My dogs are gentle giants who are under my control, even off lead. Unfortunately not all other dogs or owners are as sensible in their behaviour when they see 20 stone of black dogs approaching.

If I ever saw a dog on a class walk with injuries, I would be screaming to get that animal cared for. I have only once seen someone in class treat their dog in a way which was unethical and immediately dealt with it and reported it to John. I would not hesitate to report anyone to the authorities whom I suspected of mis-treating an animal.

I love my dogs and have loved Danes for 44 years now. I work with the rescue.

Yes I have used prong collars with these two. Only after I placed the collar on myself and had someone pull it as hard as they could to ensure that they did not hurt me. I am much more susceptible to pain than my Danes. Basil doesn't need his any more. Poppy can still get a fright and become panicked. Fear might cause her to bolt or react in a way which might cause some people to fear her. She is huge and black. This 'causing of fear' could result in a complaint under the Dangerous Dogs Act and subsequent action taken. In order to defend my dog I will walk her with a prong collar.

These dogs would have been put down if they had not been referred to the rescue. They were both severely, permanently damaged by thoughtless human beings. Thoughtlessness is one of the most dangerous things along with unwillingness to actually challenge the truth of ones assumptions.

Yes there are prong collars out there which are badly made and could do damage which is why our class would never suggest buying over the internet but John would only allow using ones which are not sharp and check out exactly how to use one correctly.

I will not indulge in personal attacks or respond to them. Arguments ad hominem are not appreciated on this forum.
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Regards,
Lorna, Basil & Poppy
Great Danes are not substitute children. They are much more important than that!

[Jack]

I look forward to hearing from you when you've eaten Josephine......I have to say I personally disagree with the use of prongs until or unless other training methods have been tried and proven to fail.

I know I have 100% supported the use of them on here and I stand by every word I have written but I would never use them from the off. However that is MY choice and I do not judge those who do use them if they have found they work and if the dog is in no distress - THAT is of paramount importance to me. NO tool should cause a dog pain, suffering or distress - if it does then it should be immediately removed and replaced with something more suitable.

I've seen that link before but thanks for posting for other people to view and comment upon.


As an aside I have switched my allegance from a leather handled and chain lead - sure it gives me the flexibility I require BUT it knackers my knuckles when I reign Sykes in. I am now using the leather leashes I sell as they are very strong yet very flexible and MUCH kinder on my knuckles.
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Staffies are my life! Visit us at www.staffies.co.uk

[Jack]

Nice post Lorna. Your dogs are bl00dy lucky to have you. Anyone with eyes and a brain in their head can see and understand how well loved and cared for they are. xxxx
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Staffies are my life! Visit us at www.staffies.co.uk

[Josephine]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucQKoR6sGjc

Look at this video and listen to how the dog squeals with pain every time the trainer tugs on the lead and he did not do it only twice as he says. I saw at least 4 tugs followed by squeals. Sure the dog stopped barking at the motor cycle but he was shivering with fear. Hardly a good outcome in my view. With a little more or maybe a lot more time this could have been achieved without hurting the dog.
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Josephine
"The earth laughs in flowers"
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(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
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[Craig/Tracy]

I watched this one Josephine and a dog will let out a little yelp first time the pinch collar is applied,you are posting a video of the world famous dog trainer that has saved hundreds of dogs and many using this method,cannot be a bad thing or do you think he is cruel ?. have you read Enzos training methods yet????

[Jack]

Shock tactics indeed Josephine but I am sure NOONE on here who REMAINS a member of the club (as I understand it the person to whom Gordon referred is no longer a club member) would EVER sink to that level, i.e. a level that causes their much loved pet ongoing pain and fear and I wouldn't defend them if they did.

Mind that is NOT representative of that episode of Cesar NOR of the series in its' entirety!
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Staffies are my life! Visit us at www.staffies.co.uk

[Jack]

Can I respectfully request your comments please Josephine as regards Haltis and their use. I'm NOT on a witch hunt here I just feel it appropriate that you respond to the question I raised in my first reply to you and also to THIS statement I have just found on another respected dog lovers forum - I feel it only right that you defend YOUR tool of choice given that you are criticising many members on here over THEIR tool of choice:

"For dogs known to lunge (whether it's at people, dogs, squirrels, cats, etc) any head halter no matter what the brand can be very dangerous! Basically when a dog lunges against the head halter the leash tightens and he gets a whip lash effect on his neck which can cause paralysis or extreme pain. Also if the dog continues to pull even if it is slightly it's not good on their spine (unusual pressure on the spine) and can cause long lasting damage"

I'd also like to state that one of my Staffie forum members has been using a halti to try and train her dog and he despises it - shakes at the very sight of it. I've told her - or should I say ADVISED her to revert to normal collar as he wasn't a bad puller and clearly the halti does not suit him.

I'd also like your comments please as regards harnesses as they are NOT suitable for dogs who pull....what other method would YOU personally consider using if all else had failed? Let's assume that your dog is unresponsive to corrective training such as the clicker, the jerk of the leash, the long leash, the drop and walk in the opposite direction a la Dog Borstal, the halti and harness....what is left to you...what would you do? AGAIN I stress NO witch hunt just an honest and open debate/forum of ideas as to what other methods could be considered.
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Staffies are my life! Visit us at www.staffies.co.uk

[Claire/Mark]

[charlene]

i tried a halti a few years ago with tina.......never again!!! she went balistic when i put it on her and cut her face by trying to pull it of with her paws/claws, as i was trying to get it off her......when she was pulling it was twisting her neck........she was not a happy dog!! but i no this works for some people and if there dogs are happy with it then i wouldnt dismiss it!!
when i was introduced to the prong i thought it looked cruel........but i was very open to finding out more about it and being shown how to use it correctly.......it was my decision to try tina in a prong no one elses!!
for 4 years i never had tina on a lead because she was such a nightmare, pulling and choking herself and now up until a year and a half ago thanks to the prong and classes we can both enjoy walks (on lead) i now take her to all the horse events i go 2 because i no she will sit nicely and not pull me about the place.......sometimes if she gets to excited she will occasionally pull a bit........therfore i no this is not causing her pain because she wouldnt do if it did !!!
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[kendal]

i admit he miss counted the number of corrections, but if you watched the video(i have seen that episode many times, this is only a very short clip of that part of the episode) you can see that the times the dog sequels is when he his already freaked out by the noise and is either barking, lunging, or doing the nervous excited mouth chitter. however when the dog is sitting quietly next to the bike but is fixated on the engine he dos not react to the correction with a sequel, he simple looks to the handler .

dog behaver can be miss interpreted so easily, that is why so may people mistake a dog that barks through excitement of seeing them, as aggression.
the shaking i do not believe is fear, it is tension and excitement, the dog is learning to deal with a situation that up untill now it has only dealt with by attacking the object of its fear and confusion.


as for marks on the neck, there is an image on the net that i think is completely miss under stood. i have only know one dog to have marks on his neck from the prong, and im sure His owner will not mind me talking about it. i think she lost his original prong at one point and had to buy a new one, after buying this new one from a different supplier from the first she knottiest marks on his neck. they were red and soar looking but the prongs were not sharp and the owner had not seen these mark previously . it was eventually considered that he might be allergic to the base mettle in the prong. so she bought a copper prong, and the marks disappeared. she can now go running with her dog with out the risk being dragged along the ground.

so in short i think the photos that are used against the prong/pinch are shown and viewed in the wrong context.

there is not much more i can say that hasn't already been said by others, i am sorry Gordon that this is the reason you have left, but i wish you all the best in you new venture and that your move goes will, will miss bot your self your wife and Clyde.

i am happy with the prong and my girls reaction to it, if i pick them up they know the sound and come running, and dance about till they are put on. if i put them back away the girl will follow my every move.

as the others have said, no one method works for every dog or owner. its all about what works for you.
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microchiping and grooming www.chipnclip.co.uk

[John Thomson]

I have watched this thread and refrained from posting until now.

I would like to make a few points.......

firstly, I put the welfare and health of my dogs first and foremost. I believe that they are happy, healthy, in general obedient well looked after, well excercised dogs.

Secondly, Josephine , we welcome everyone to our forum and that applies to people who do or do not attend our or any other classes and who do or do not agree with the opinions of anyone else. I t has to be said that you so far seem to have only one area of interest..........I may be wrong but this is simply an observation based on your 6 posts to date....people have in the past joined with an 'agenda'

Thirdly, a prong/pinch collar is certainly not the first thing I would suggest to deal with any dog.
Sparkey the collie that you refer to Gordon came to our classes as a last resort, he has a 2 inch wide stripe of fur missing due to pulling on a half check but is now no longer going to be re homed and is doing well...Sparkey continues to improve and I am sure in due course the use of the prong as a training collar to prevent the dog choking himself will not be needed. Sparkey continues to train with us.
I am sorry that you have chosen not to continue to train Clyde with us Gordon.

Fourthly, Vets have some very strange ideas and beliefs..........I do use a pinch collar when visiting the vet.......I am fortunate that this for the last 3 years has been only for annual vaccinations......I put this down to the raw diet I feed which is something that vets object to........probably because Hill Science plan pay for the 5 day Canine Nutrition module in their university course

lastly any training tool can be misused........and that includes your voice.
If anyone wants to disagree with me I have and never will have a problem with that.
Our classes include many dogs that have been excluded from other classes........Alan/Lynseys dog was deemed 'untrainable', Michaels dog Buster was removed from another class for biting a trainer, Enzo's story is too long to even start discussing here...........the list of people on here who still have their dog because they use a prong collar is long...........perhaps the rescue centres would not be destroying otherwise healthey dogs if their original owners were prepared to take steps to keep the dogs in line.
We are nor all 'experts' who can control a dog on a flat collar, we are not all blessed with perfect timing when correcting our dogs, we are not all able to spend 24/7 training our dogs.

I will finish with one short story........a couple of years ago I visited local kennels who bred obedience show dogs....she was appalled to learn that I used prong collars....as it was 'inhumane' ( a strange description when dealing with a Canine), she then proceeded to tell me that if one of her dogs did not 'perform in competition' she would have it destroyed so that it did not damage the breeding line............go figure that one!!!!!!!!!!

john
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John Thomson
www.cumbernaulddogtraining.co.uk

[Jack]

[Janis]

this.thread.is.going.to.run.and.run.josephine.........the.bottom.line.is.that.we.are.all.dog.owners.and.lovers.......and.we.all.
choose.to.rear.our.dogs.differently!........as.we.do.with.our.kids!.........some.women.choose.to.smoke.and.drink.during.
pregnancy.....which.i.object.to.but.what.can.i.do!.......

there.are.lot.of.things.in.life.that.we.all.don't.like.but.we.have.to.put.up.with!.............you.along.with.anyone.else.are.
more.than.welcome.to.come.and.meet.me.and.see.and.examine.my.dogs......a.prong/pinch.collar.may.not.suit.you.and.your.
dogs.but.it.suits.me.and.that.is.all.that.matters.to.me!............should.i.see.problems.with.my.dogs.then.i.would.re-address.the.
situation.but.i.so.wish.i.knew.about.them.27years.ago.as.i.used.choke.chains.
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Cockapoo's...a little of this, a little of that..........
the perfect combination!

[Gaelle]

Josephine, you say you are aware of how much we all care for our dogs. Why in the world then would we choose to use something which would damage them or be cruel? Quite the contrary, we choose to use them precisely BECAUSE we care for our dogs so much and want to keep them safe. If we didn't use the collars and something happened to them BECAUSE they weren't wearing them. e.g if they got spooked by something and ran into a road in front of a car causing massive injury and possibly death not only to themselves but to car's occupants etc, we could never forgive ourselves. If ANY of us was aware of ANYONE misusing these collars and causing injury to a dog, we would not stand by idly and let it go on. OF COURSE NOT!! We are all responsible dog owners from all different backgrounds etc and I doubt very much if anyone who uses these collars has NOT tried them out on themselves first, so there is no brainwashing involved. It is always a personal choice based on personal circumstances.
I choose to use one to keep my own dog , myself and everyone else safe, not because he is in any way vicious, just powerful and single minded at times!
I also leave it on him when we go to the vets and no one has yet made an adverse comment. At the end of the day it is me who is in charge of him and I feel much safer when he wears his collar with more control for when he gets spooked by something or decides to investigate something on the other side of the street. He is a happy healthy young dog who it is a pleasure to walk with the safeguard of his collar. He is in no way cowed or intimidated by it and if I thought for ONE INSTANT he was being traumatised by it in any way it would be history. It works, I'm safe, he's safe, he's happy . End of story!
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Happiness is watching my dog chase leaves dancing in the breeze.

[charlene]

totally agree with janis this could go on !!

to be honest i dont think anyone else should have to justify there reasons to why they choose to use a prong/pinch collar.......josephine has clearly made her mind up and is not prepared to listen to anyones stories on there dogs and the results its had for them !!
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